From: gwyn@ipied.tu.ac.TH (Gwyn Williams) Newsgroups: soc.culture.thai Subject: Origin of the word "farang" (1) Date: 29 Mar 1994 04:24:21 +1000 Organization: Mail/News gateway Lines: 847 Sender: mailer@munnari.OZ.AU Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: munnari.oz.au (For SCT FAQ. This FAQ comprises two separate posts.) ORIGIN OF THE WORD "FARANG" A wide-spread belief in Thailand is that the word "farang" (Caucasian) is derived from the French word "francais". This derivation is implausible on phonetic and historical grounds. It is in fact a popular misconception. It is true, however, that these words have the same ultimate source. The word is attested in various forms in languages in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South Asia, and Southeast Asia. It is clear that the word orginated as "Frank" in Europe and spread eastwards along Muslim trade routes. Thai most likely borrowed the word from influential Muslim Persian or Indian traders in the 17th century or even earlier. The Persian word was "farangg". The term probably was used to refer to early Portuguese traders and subsequently to all Europeans (ie., non-Muslims). It is possible that the Thai word "farangset" ("French") is a blend of the word "farang" and the French word "francais", ie., "farangset" is actually derived from "farang", not vice versa. Certainly, the word "farang" existed prior to, and independently of, "farangset". The following is an edited collection of discussions on the origin of the Thai word "farang". PART 1 includes the initial discussion on soc.culture.thai (PART 1). I forwarded the topic to LINGUIST LIST for information on the word in other languages (PART 2). Mr. Gwyn Williams Department of Linguistics Faculty of Liberal Arts Thammasat University March 26, 1994 ___________________________________________________________ PART 1: "FARANG" - DISCUSSION ON SOC.CULTURE.THAI ------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 May 1993 20:50:27 -1700 From: "Ahmed F. Hosny" Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: farang kee nok In a previous article, col@megadata.mega.oz.au (Colin Newell) says: >In article , frieku@saturn.wwc.edu (Kurt Owen Friederich) writes: >> I was would like too know the meaning of "farang kee nok." One of my > >Literally, it means 'bird shit farang' - it means a scruffy, low-life, >poor farang. (a farang is a foreigner, of european appearance) Just an observation on the similarity of some words in different languages. In arabic (in Egypt and in some North African countries) "Afrangui" also means a foreigner of obvious western appearance. It derives from the word "french" (since the french had occupied Egypt quite some time back.) I wonder if "farang" and "afrangui" derive from the same or similar source or is it just a coincidence?  -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 18 May 1993 07:11:04 -1700 From: Samart Srijumnong Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: farang kee nok ac264@Freenet.carleton.ca (Ahmed F. Hosny) writes: >I wonder if "farang" and "afrangui" derive from the same or similar >source or is it just a coincidence? Indeed, the term farang is a short derivative of Francais (sp?) which probably would have been the first group who had come to contact with Thai people. Since other westerners look alike this group, they would have been included in the same category. Intestingly, my Laotian friends have reserved the term (farang) for French people as well as the country of France. They use the term America to mean both the people and the country of the United States of America. Thais, too, use the the same term as their Laotian cousins when they refer to the people and the country of the US. We, however, use the term fa'rang'sed' to mean French people and Pra'thed"fa'rang'sed' when we mean the country of France. The term farang, no matter one likes it or not, is being used to mean westerners (with typically blond hair and/or blue eyes). Those who have sharp facial features but with dark hair and eyes are often called khAAg'. Other Far Eastern Asians are called by their natinality, e.g. Yii"pun', jiin-, kaw-lii+. We also use specific term for people in the S.E. Asian countries which, like with those of other countries, normally prefixed by the term khon, e.g. laaw, ka'meen+, viat"naam- (or kAAw), maa-lee-sia-, in-doo-(Idonesian), pha"maa", in-dia-. Some of the words could sound negative, depending on the context in which they are used. Regards, Samart. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 08:37:29 -1700 From: Rom Hirunpruk Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: origins of the term "farang" On Tue, 18 May 1993, Gwyn Williams wrote: [...] > There is definitely a possibility that they are related. I have recently > read a very interesting paper tracing the origin of "farang" and similar > words in SEA to the word "frank" (an ancient tribe of European heritage), > borrowed via Arabic and Indian languages. I'll dig up the paper if you are > interested.  My indian friend recognized the word FARANG right away when he came to Thailand. It appears that the word FARANGI in Hindi has the exact same meaning as the one we use in Thailand. Whether the word relates to "frank" is interesting to know. Rom Hiranpruk (rom@ipied.tu.ac.th) -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 08:48:46 -1700 From: Rom Hirunpruk Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: farang kee nok On Mon, 17 May 1993, Ahmed F. Hosny wrote: [...] > Just an observation on the similarity of some words in different languages. > In arabic (in Egypt and in some North African countries) "Afrangui" also > means a foreigner of obvious western appearance. It derives from the word > "french" (since the french had occupied Egypt quite some time back.) > > I wonder if "farang" and "afrangui" derive from the same or similar > source or is it just a coincidence? [...] The word FARANGI in Hindi has the exact same meaning as the one used in Thailand. It would appear that the Thai (as well as many others) used the same old word to mean western (caucasian) foreigner. Rom Hiranpruk, rom@ipied.tu.ac.th -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 13:16:34 -1700 From: Brian Migliazza Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th To: gwyn@ipied.tu.ac.th Subject: Re: origin of term "farang" The linguistic question concerning the term "farang", is what is the actual source and how widespread is it in Southeast Asia. Is the term "farang" a derivation of the word "france/french" or from the word "frank". Offhand, it seems that both words (france or frank) are possible. Since Thai (and most southeast asian languages) don't have the consonant cluster "fr" they then insert a vowel, to make it "far". Then because these same SEA languages also do not have the "s" ending (as in the word "france") they pronounce the final "s" closer to a "t" or a "k". The other question is, haw widespread is this term in other southeast asian languages. The widespread use of the same term might indicate borrowing from a different common source, such as from Arabic into Sanskrit and Pali. Brian Thammasat University -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 14:13:29 -1700 From: Gwyn Williams Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: origin of term "farang" On Thu, 20 May 1993, Brian Migliazza wrote: > > The linguistic question concerning the term "farang", is what is the > actual source and how widespread is it in Southeast Asia. Is the term > "farang" a derivation of the word "france/french" or from the word > "frank". Offhand, it seems that both words (france or frank) are possible. If I recall correctly the paper I originally mentioned with the word "frank" (in whatever form), French "francais" and Thai "farang" are borrowing, ie., moving via Arabaric countries to India to SEA. The two words are "indirect cognates", ie., one is not directly borrowed from the other. (I had better relocate that article to get my facts right.) > Since Thai (and most southeast asian languages) don't have the consonant > cluster "fr" they then insert a vowel, to make it "far". Then because > these same SEA languages also do not have the "s" ending (as in the word > "france") they pronounce the final "s" closer to a "t" or a "k". Possible, but I am sceptical. While initial clusters with fricative /s-/ as first element (eg., "sport", "start", "sky") have a vowel inserted to break up the cluster, clusters with /r/ as the second element (eg,. "free", "fry", also "flee", "fly") are simplified, ie., the /r/ is either realized as [l] (eg., "free" [flii]) or dropped entirely ("free" [fii]). The insertion of a vowel in the cluster /fr-/ strikes me as strange. Can someone provide counter-examples?? [farangset] for "France" is one. But that may be an exception. If "farang" is derived from "francais" I would expect the form [f(r)angsEE?]. Don't forget final "s" is French is not pronounced (in the masculine). Anyway, what happened to the final syllable? > The other question is, haw widespread is this term in other southeast > asian languages. The widespread use of the same term might indicate > borrowing from a different common source, such as from Arabic into > Sanskrit and Pali. Yes, exactly. I think a similar word is found in Khmer, we now know it is found in Arabic languages, Indian languages. Anywhere else?? Ever since I came to Thailand I have had a question. Polynesian languages have a word "palangi" (and related forms) to mean "Caucasian". I have always wondered if there were some connection. Although there may be some relationship between Thai and Polynesian (if you believe the Austro-Thai/Thai-Kadai hypothesis), there is no way that this word is a direct cognate. (Not too many Caucasians round at the time of the settlement of Polynesia - unless the Egyptians got there first! :-> .) I wonder if the similarity between Thai (and other languages) is chance or borrowing. Is there a connection between SEA and Polynesia? Specifically, does this word, in whatever form, exist in Malaysia, the Philippines, Indonesia? Anyone have any ideas?? Gwyn Linguistics, Thammasat University -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 21 May 1993 17:44:47 +0700 (GMT+0700) From: Gwyn Williams Dear folks, Thus far in our discussion of the origin of the word "farang" in Thai, it has been established that similar words exist in other languages spoken in the region, ie., Hindi in India, ie, "farangi" (Rom Hiranpruk). Also, similar words exist in the Arabic of Egypt and North African countries, eg., "Afrangui" (from Ahmed F. Hosny). I also suggested the word "palangi" found in Polynesia. All these words mean "(white) European". These similarities cannot be chance. There must be borrowing involved. But what is the source and what was the route? In Thai, the source is typically attributed to "franc'ais" (farangset), but on May 20, I expressed reservations that [far-] would come from [fr] in the pronunciation of Thais, as proposed by Brian Migliazza on May 20. Thai more likely borrowed the form from another language. Below is the paper I have referred to previously. It has direct bearing on the discussion, and even on another discussion on the meaning of the word "Thai". The paper is reproduced only in part. Serge Thion. 1993. "On Some Cambodian Words." Australian National University Thai-Yunnan Project Newsletter. Canberra: Research School of Pacific Studies. Number 20, March 1993, 18-23. [Deleted is discussion of the origin of Khmer words for the Vietnamese, "Kambuja"] The Word *Barang* In Cambodia, Westerners are usually called *barang*. Some understand this word as meaning, specifically, 'French', but it actually means a foreigner with European complexion. Khmers have a local adaptation, *fransay* when they want to be more specific. The word is not Khmer. It has a long history. First of all, the word may be found in several unconnected languages in the area. The Thais say *farang* (or sometimes *falang*) while the Khmers say *barang*. It is because there is no F sound in the Khmer language, and B is a tentative rendering of F. In Vietnamese, where Westerners are usually called *tay* (which means West), the word *pha-rang* or *pha-lang-xa* is also known, if fallen into disuse. It was probably a mixed attempt to blend *farang* and *franc,ais*. At the time of the Nguye^n dynasty (19th century), the word for Europe was *Hoa-lang*, 'being a Vietnamization of the Siamese word for white men, *farang*'. Vietnamese as well as Chinese speakers tried to make the best out of this sound FA, which they heard from foreign travellers, and which seemed to concern the French, who used the sound FRA (as in France) to refer to themselves. But this is an impossible sound in Chinese or Vietnamese. FA instead was available, [...] But nothing of the sort occurred in Khmer. The word was new, acquired from the Muslim traders coming from Malaysia, India and the Gulf region. The Malays who probably got the word earlier have no sound F. Unlike the Khmers who rendered F with B, they used P. And when hearing Arab seafarers say 'frandji', they uttered *perantjis*. This is still the word for French. It is clear now that *barang* is just one form of a word which has been adapted from India - where it is also found with several spellings - to China, borrowed from the Muslim, often Arab, traders known in Asia for many centuries. They circulated along the shores of Africa and India the word *farandji* to name the people from Europe, to distinguish them from the *Rumi* (Romans), in fact the Greeks from Byzance, successor to Rome. It means 'Franks' and was the word the Crusaders used for themselves. They had established a 'frankish' kingdom in Jerusalem which had lasted about one century (1099-1187. The last stronghold, Acre, fell in 1291). Some Christian Arab families have taken the word as a name, for instance, a president of Lebanon was called Suleiman Frandjie'. The word has travelled since, from Arab *faranji*, it has spread to Ethiopia, on the way to India *'Ferendj, faranj, farangi* is the usual word in the Ge'ez [medieval] chronicles used to name the Europeans'. The first Crusades were led by the kings and the military aristocracy of northern Europe, mostly Germans, Flemish, British, French and Normans. In this vast area, the word 'Frank' had a long political history. The Franks, when we hear of them in the earliest historical records, are a group of unorganized Germanic tribes living in the West of the Rhine. (This record calls them *Pranci* but later *Franci* prevailed). They started to cross the Rhine in the third century A.D. They controlled an important ford to which their name is still attached (Frankfurt). During the fifth century, the Salian Franks expanded and taking advantage of the growing weakness of the Roman empire, they established Frankish kingdoms in North of France, Belgium and the left bank of the Rhine. They were warriors, spoke their own Germanic language and had their own laws. In the following centuries, they expanded their area of control over most of Northern Europe, destroying in the process other Germanic kingdoms. [...] The name *Francia* was given to the North of France where the most important Frankish kingdom was established. In the process, they had become Christian and more and more assimilated to the Roman culture. Some maintained their Germanic language, but others began to speak 'Roman'. The word 'Frank' meant began to mean [sic] less a tribal origin and more the common membership of a class of warriors who had become large landowners by right of conquest. By the time of the Crusades, it was still used as a political word encompassing a great number of these new States, born out of the disappearance of the Roman empire. [...] On the other hand, Francia, at first a small part of Northern Roman Gaul, expanded southward and their inhabitants were called 'Franc,ais', although very few of them had Germanic ancestry. They spoke a rather rotten form of Latin, called 'Roman', and later 'French'. So, to put it in a nutshell, when Thais say *farang* or Khmers say *barang*, they unwittingly use the name of a bunch of tribes who used to live in central Germany about 2000 years ago, a word of which nobody knows the original meaning. It is lost in the dark forests of the past. It has been said that the word originally meant 'free' (Thais also entertain the myth that the word *Thai* means 'free', a pure invention). An earlier source (*Historia Francorum*) says in 660 A.D. that it means 'ferocious' but both are late mythological rationalizations. It has meant 'free' much later because of the privileges of power. Is not the history of words sometimes strange?" ---------------------------- So, what was the ultimate source of "farang"? Western Europe. What was the route? Via the Crusades to Jerusalem and the Arab nations, hence along trade routes into Africa and Asia. And, maybe, even into Polynesia. "Farang" in Thai is not derived from "franc'ais". Rather, both are derived from the same source, but by very different routes. The puzzle remaining now, of course, is where does "farang" the name of the fruit come from? Is the fruit named after the race and not the race after the fruit, as Thais believe? That would require an examination of the origins of the fruit (is it native to Thailand?) or of the name (is "farang" the original name? Are there other names? Are there different names elsewhere in Thailand?) Or is it just chance? Gwyn Thammasat University -------------------------------------------------------------------------- From Gwyn Re: My last word(?) on the origin of "farang" in Thai. I have dug up another paper on the origins of the word "farang" that I vaguely remembered having read a long time ago. It complements the paper by Serge Thion (1993) I have already cited. It gives the probable immediate source of the word in Thai. Jimmy Harris. 1986. "The Persian connection: Four loanwords in Siamese." Pasaa Vol.XVI, No.1 (June 1986). Bangkok: Chulalongkorn University Language Institute. Jimmy Harris' work on Thai phonetics and dialectology is well known in Thai linguistics. At the time of writing this paper he was teaching in Saudi Arabia. The text is reproduced in full, excluding some notes. "1. Introduction There is excellent documented evidence from the 17th century that a small Persian trading colony was already well established in Siam. [ Note 1: The important record of an official Persian delegation to Siam during the reign of Sha Sulaiman 1 (1666-1694) has recently been translated into English as *The Ship of Sulaiman*, by John O'Kane, London: Routledge & Kegan, 1972. ] These Persian traders were so influential that some of them, by winning the favor of the king, became high officials in the government of the kingdom. [ Note 2: the descendants of some of the original Persian traders - members of the Bunnag, Siphen and Singhaseni families - have continued to be in positions close to the throne into the twentieth century. ] Additional evidence from the same source leads us to believe that Persian traders probably arrived in Siam as early as the 16th century. A Persian connection could have, in fact, taken place much earlier. We know, for example, that Persian trading communities were in India as early as the 8th century and that beginning in the 13th century Muslim rulers governed India for more than six hundred years. By the 16th century, during the Mughal (Persian for Mongol) Empire of India (1526-1761), the official language of India was Persian and over half of the educated men in Indian government service were from Persia. Persians and other Muslims have always considered trading an honorable profession; consequently, Persian commerce was a bigger business than industry or agriculture. Therefore, it is not surprising that when Vasco da Gama reached the city of Calicut, India in May 1498 he discovered that the Muslims there had a monopoly on trade with other countries. We may never know the exact date when the first Persian traders arrived in Thailand or the native language of the speakers who introduced these specific Persian words into Siamese. It is possible that some of these Persian words were introduced into Siamese by Indian traders whose second language was Persian. One thing we do know however is that there are Persian loanwords in Siamese and they were borrowed in, at the latest, the 16th or 17th century. The following are four of those loanwords. 2. The Franks Originally the Franks were one of a group of Germanic tribes. These Germanic Peoples were the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Alamanni, Bavarians, Franks and Langobardi. In the 3rd and 4th centuries the Angles, Saxons and Jutes moved across the channel into the British Isles; the Alamanni, Bavarians and Langobardi moved into Southeastern Germany, Switzerland, Austria, an Northern Italy and the Franks moved into France and the Netherlands and established themselves along the Rhine River. In the 9th century this Frankish kingdom split into the Western Frankish kingdom which is approximately the area of present day France and the Eastern Frankish kingdom in what is now Germany. The word *Frank* could have been borrowed by the Muslims as early as A.D.732 when the Franks defeated a Muslim army at Tours, France. More likely however, the word *Frank* was probably borrowed at the time of the Crusades (1096-1291). the first Crusade was largely made up of Franks so the Muslims may have thought that all European Christians were Franks. *Frank* thus became the Persian word for a European Christian. Throughout the Muslim world to this day the word *Frank* or a derivation of it still has the bad connotation of a Christian infidel. France is derived from the Germanic word for the Franks. The Old High German word for these people was "Franko" and the Old French name for them was "Franc". The old form of this word is still around today in words like Francophile, Franco-Swiss, etc. It seems the original German meaning was something like "free from bondage or restraint". This meaning is also still around today in, for example, the English phrase "to speak frankly" (to speak without restraint). The Siamese words [ Thai script ] /khaeaek/ means "guest or visitor" and when said alone it usually stands for an "Indian" (from India). Another usage is as a cover term for Muslim peoples as in /khaeaek malaajuu/, /khaeaek india/, /khaeaek thaj/. /khaeaek sa?u?/, etc. Until very recently the words also covered Africans and other black people but during the Vietnam War there was a large influx of American negro servicemen into the country and ever since then a common word for black people has been [ Thai script ] /nikroo/ "negro". I have no reason to doubt that the word /khaeaek/ was the common word to denote Persians, Indians and other Muslim traders when the first European came to Siam and since the Siamese had no word for these non-Muslim Europeans they borrowed the Persian word [ Persian script ] farangg "Frank". *Frank* was not the only common Persian word for any European Christian at the time but all Muslim traders in Siam would have called any Christian Portuguese, Englishman or Dutchman by this term. It is obviously the source of the Siamese word [ Thai script ] /farang/ "Occidental, European". [ Thai script ] is also the Siamese word for the "guava". Since this shrub or small tree originated in South America and was probably first brought to Siam by the Portuguese it is understandable why the Siamese called it the "Frank's tree" [ Thai script ] /ton farang/. 3. Rose The Siamese word for "rose" is [ Thai script ] /dork kulaap/. /kulaap/ is definitely of Persian origin. The original Persian word is [ Persian script ] golaab and means "rosewater". Persian golaab is a compound word made up of gol "rose" and 'aab "water". This Persian word was borrowed into Urdu as gulaab to mean both "rose" and "rosewater". Thus a speaker of an Indian language could have been the direct source of this word into Siamese but there is no doubt that the word is of Persian origin. 4. Grape The Siamese word for "grape" is [ Thai script ] /angun/ is also of Persian origin. The Persian word is [ Persian script ] anguur. This Persian word was borrowed with the same pronunciation and meaning as the original. 5. Cabbage Both the Siamese words for "cabbage" [ Thai script ] /kalam plii/ and "cauliflower" [ Thai script ] /kalam dork/ contain the Persian borrowed word kalam which means "cabbage". The Persian word for cauliflower is [ Persian script ] gole kalam literally "the flower of the cabbage" which is the exact meaning of the Siamese equivalent [ Thai script ] /kalam dork/." ------------------------------- A few mysteries have been cleared up: On Tue, 18 May 1993 Jonas Ditlev wrote: >I don't think they derive from same source, since farang derives from the >thais unable to say france, in other words farang derives from from the >early french poeple in Thailand. On Tue, 18 May 1993 Samart Srijumnong wrote: >Indeed, the term farang is a short derivative of Francais (sp?) which >probably would have been the first group who had come to contact with >Thai people. Since other westerners look alike this group, they would >have been included in the same category. It is probable that the French were not the first whites to come to Thailand. Muslim traders came much earlier. And they brought the word with them. "Farang" clearly does not derive directly from "franc,ais" or "French". On May 20 I wrote: "The insertion of a vowel in the cluster /fr-/ strikes me as strange. Can someone provide counter-examples?? [farangset] for "France" is one. But that may be an exception." On May 21 I wrote: "Thai more likely borrowed the form from another language." The mystery of the origin of the [fa-] in "farang" may be solved. As I said in the earlier discussion, Thais do not separate an initial [fr-] with a vowel, they drop the [r]. ["farangset] "France, French" is also strange in this way. Thai must have taken it from elsewhere. I will propose an hypothesis: "Farang" is not derived from "farangset" because other Westerners look like the first French, as Samart Srijumnong says. It is the other way round: "farangset" is derived from "farang" because the first Europeans (French?) in Thailand were similar to and associated with the Muslim (Persian) traders who were already established in Thailand from the 16th century. "Farang" existed in Thailand before "farangset". If the [fa-] did not originate in Thai itself it must have come from another language that allows this vowel insertion. The mystery vowel in [fa-] was borrowed from the Persian "farangg" to describe the non-Muslim Europeans. This would also explain why there is no third syllable in Thai "farang", as occurs in Hindi "farangi" or Arabic "afrangui", "faranji" (Hindi also has "ferendj", "farangj" - I don't know if 'j' is pronounced as a separate syllable or not). Simple, Persian didn't have it in the first place. Thai "farangset" is perhaps a combination (by analogy) of "farang" and the second syllable of "franc,ais", ie., "farang" + "cais". --------------------------- Scenario: The first European steps into Thailand. Somchaj looks at this strange apparition and turns to his friend in amazement, exclaiming, "My Buddha, what is _that_?!". His friend, who just happens to speak Persian, answers, "That, my dear sir, is an infidel. It is a 'farang'." "How curious," replies Somchaj, "and what is that fruit he is holding in his hand? It must be from the farang's tree. But why is that farang so hairy and the other is not?" Now you know. Gwyn W. Thammasat, Bangkok -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 05:46:39 -1700 From: Tawit Chitsomboon Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: The last word on "farang" (?) In article gwyn@ipied.tu.ac.th (Gwyn Williams) writes: > >......X > Jimmy Harris' work on Thai phonetics and dialectology is well known >in Thai linguistics. At the time of writing this paper he was teaching >in Saudi Arabia. The text is reproduced in full, excluding some notes. > >.................X >2. The Franks > (More comments later) >.................X >3. Rose > > The Siamese word for "rose" is [ Thai script ] /dork kulaap/. /kulaap/ >is definitely of Persian origin. ^^^^^^^^^^ Not so fast! He should have used PROBABLY in stead of DEFINITELY. Hasn't it ever occured to JH that the Persian could have borrowed the word from Siamese? I used to complain many times that scholars often don't give Siamese any credit; they always thought that we borrows things either from India or China when in fact the reverse could also be true. Now, things start to change, there is a Chinese scholar (can't remember his name, but he's teaching in Hong Kong) who proposed that the Chinese culture was derived from Tai's. There're also many similar words in Tai and Kwangtung (Cantonese). The name Kwangtung itself could be Tai, Kwang+ (wide area, same as Chinese) and Tung" (grassy land). I don't count inventing words to call something as credit. I only use this discussion as a metaphor for other things that count, like: musical instrument, pottery, culture, etc. >4. Grape > > The Siamese word for "grape" is [ Thai script ] /angun/ is also of >Persian origin. The Persian word is [ Persian script ] anguur. This I'll buy this one. I myself have been wondering about the origin of this word. This makes sense, since Angun is not native to Thailand. (Kulaab , Farang, and Kalam probably are) >5. Cabbage > Same as before. Could be the other way around. > >On Tue, 18 May 1993 Samart Srijumnong wrote: > >>Indeed, the term farang is a short derivative of Francais (sp?) which > > It is probable that the French were not the first whites to come to >Thailand. Muslim traders came much earlier. And they brought the word with >them. Why does French need to be the first to come to Thailand in order for us to call every Westerner as French (Farang, that is)? The word could change many times but only the word Farang stick. >"Farang" clearly does _not_ derive directly from "franc,ais" or >"French". Why is it so clear? French in French is 'Frong' or 'Frang' (sara a as in kata (wok)), depending on accent. My French teacher always pronounced it as 'frang' and he said this is the Court accent, high blood (I didn't believe him) > >On May 20 I wrote: > "The insertion of a vowel in the cluster /fr-/ strikes me as strange. >Can someone provide counter-examples?? [farangset] for "France" is one. >But that may be an exception." There are many examples in Thai: 1- John Crawford was rendered as Yon Karafat. 2- Hunter Barney was rendered as Huntrae Baranee. 3- Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 4- There is no reason why 'frang' can't be rendered as 'farang' >On May 21 I wrote: > > "Thai more likely borrowed the form from another language." > > The mystery of the origin of the [fa-] in "farang" may be solved. As I >said in the earlier discussion, Thais do not separate an initial [fr-] >with a vowel, they drop the [r]. ["farangset] "France, French" is also >strange in this way. Thai must have taken it from elsewhere. French may not be the First farang to come to Siam (the Portugese was believed to be the first). But French influence on Thai is probably the most. Thailand is probably the first Asian country to sent diplomats to France (during King Narai's reign in 16th century, or during Louise the 14th). We could have picked up the word 'frang' during this visit. Moreover, we called English as the French call them, Ungrid (Angglaise in French). BTW, we also call China the same as the French, Jean (Chine in French). Bread is Pung (Le Pang, in French). Note: French people is 'Frang', French language is "Farangset" Another scenario is that: French people came to siam and finger pointing at their chests and said "Frang, Frang" (I am French, I'm French). As in the case of Yon Karafat, Thai were quick to insert 'a' to make it easier to pronounce since Thai language has no 'fr' sound. The word farang stick because it's also the same as the native popular fruit in the land. There we go again! -tawit -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 05:49:15 -1700 From: Tawit Chitsomboon Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: The last word on "farang" (?) In article <1tttb4$cn1@eagle.lerc.nasa.gov> fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes: >.............X >There are many examples in Thai: >1- John Crawford was rendered as Yon Karafat. >2- Hunter Barney was rendered as Huntrae Baranee. >3- Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. >4- There is no reason why 'frang' can't be rendered as 'farang' I think I think too much like a farang thesedays. The word farang in Thai has no 'a'; it is 'f-r-ang' , not 'f-a-rang'. So, this voids all my arguments above :-( There was a Burmese king that we Thai called PhraJoa FarangMang-Khong^. Why is this? Who is he? -tawit -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1993 17:59:15 -1700 From: Samart Srijumnong Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: Re: The last word on "farang" (?) fstawit@icomp01.lerc.nasa.gov (Tawit Chitsomboon) writes: >........ stuffs deleted >There was a Burmese king that we Thai called PhraJoa FarangMang-Khong^. >Why is this? Who is he? -tawit According to Pot"ja'na"saa+raa-nu"kom-, an encyclopedia published by Thai Wattana Panich, ltd., Bangkok, B.E. 2516, fa'rang'mang- khOOng^ is "...mang-khOOng+ which is the name of a MOOn king." The encyclopedia goes further in saying that "...the term ***fa'rang'*** is a corrupted pronunciation of the mOOn term bu'reng- which means the king" (p.301). The author of the description would want to limit the usage of the term fa'rang'as the distorted pronunciation of the term bu'reng- only in this mOOn/Thai linguistic relationship context. I would also like to mention that the term fa'rang' is indeed pronounced like there is sa'ra'a' after fOO+faa+ rather than it is the cluster of fOO+faa+ and rOO-rUUa-. Hence it should be pronounced fa'rang' rather than fr'ang'. It seems like Khun Tawit has to void his voided arguments. The Thai-English dictionary compiled by So Sethaputra, published by Thai Wattana Panich, ltd., nd., shows that "...Western = fa'rang'mang-khaa"..." It is seemingly, according to the dictionary, that the term mang-khaa" added at the end of the term fa'rang'serves as an adjective indicator. Interesting enough, the same dictionary gives another meaning of the term fa'rang' beside that of the fruit, guava, as to mean "...a white man (probably from the word Frank of the Levant)." (p.275) Regards, Samart. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 May 1993 16:54:06 -1700 From: Gwyn Williams Reply to: s-c-thai@nwg.nectec.or.th Subject: The influence of Thai/Tai On Wed, 26 May 1993, Tawit Chitsomboon wrote: > > The Siamese word for "rose" is [ Thai script ] /dork kulaap/. /kulaap/ > >is definitely of Persian origin. > ^^^^^^^^^^ > Not so fast! He should have used PROBABLY in stead of DEFINITELY. > Hasn't it ever occured to JH that the Persian could have borrowed > the word from Siamese? I used to complain many times that scholars > often don't give Siamese any credit; they always thought that we > borrows things either from India or China when in fact the reverse > could also be true. Now, things start to change, there is a Chinese > scholar (can't remember his name, but he's teaching in Hong Kong) > who proposed that the Chinese culture was derived from Tai's. > There're also many similar words in Tai and Kwangtung (Cantonese). > The name Kwangtung itself could be Tai, Kwang+ (wide area, same as > Chinese) and Tung" (grassy land). It is certainly true that Tai languages and cultures have had impact on those surrounding. SEA is well-known as an area of "cross-germination". While it is well-accepted that Chinese language and culture have had impact on Tai, the reverse is also true. Several years ago the linguist Paul Benedict proposed that several words thought to have been borrowed by Thai from Chinese had actually originally been borrowed much earlier by Chinese from Thai. However, for a group to borrow from another, it is (generally) necessary that there be extended contact between the two. Typically, the (socially, economically, militarily) subordinate group will adopt words from the dominant group. It is certainly possible that the Persians in Thailand did pick up some words from Thai; they would have had to speak Thai to have been able to trade. However, the word "farang" is known to have existed in Europe and Arabic long before any contact with Thailand. > I don't count inventing words to call something as credit. I only use > this discussion as a metaphor for other things that count, like: > musical instrument, pottery, culture, etc. Try discussing any of these without language. :-) > > > >4. Grape > > > > The Siamese word for "grape" is [ Thai script ] /angun/ is also of > >Persian origin. The Persian word is [ Persian script ] anguur. This > > I'll buy this one. I myself have been wondering about the origin > of this word. This makes sense, since Angun is not native to Thailand. > (Kulaab , Farang, and Kalam probably are) Farang the fruit is not native to SEA. It is South American (like tobacco and potatoes, which are now so typically "farang"). > >5. Cabbage > > > Same as before. Could be the other way around. Ditto. > >On Tue, 18 May 1993 Samart Srijumnong wrote: > > > Why is it so clear? French in French is 'Frong' or 'Frang' (sara a as in > kata (wok)), depending on accent. My French teacher always pronounced > it as 'frang' and he said this is the Court accent, high blood (I > didn't believe him) So he shouldn't believe him. Don't believe everything teachers say. We sometimes make it up as we go along. French never pronounce final nasal sounds (n, ng). The vowel is nasalized. :-) > >On May 20 I wrote: > > "The insertion of a vowel in the cluster /fr-/ strikes me as strange. > >Can someone provide counter-examples?? [farangset] for "France" is one. > >But that may be an exception." > > There are many examples in Thai: > 1- John Crawford was rendered as Yon Karafat. > 2- Hunter Barney was rendered as Huntrae Baranee. > 3- Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Please give me more "et ceteras". I note that both of these examples are proper names. Anything else? > French may not be the First farang to come to Siam (the Portugese > was believed to be the first). But French influence on Thai is > probably the most. Thailand is probably the first Asian country > to sent diplomats to France (during King Narai's reign in 16th > century, or during Louise the 14th). We could have picked up the > word 'frang' during this visit. Moreover, we called English as the > French call them, Ungrid (Angglaise in French). > > BTW, we also call China the same as the French, Jean (Chine in French). > Bread is Pung (Le Pang, in French). > > Note: French people is 'Frang', French language is "Farangset" > 'Frang'? The [fr] initial cluster does not occur in Thai. They are separated by a vowel. The vowel is there is careful speech. However, it may be very weak or even dropped in very fast speech. This fact changes nothing. Gwyn --------------------------------------------------------------------------